VdV and Defoe in the same team

[NI Yiddo]

Arry has been quoted a few times saying it's either a choice of Defoe or Van der Vaart but why choose one or t'other when we could have both in their favourite positions? Assuming everyone is fit:

------------Brad
------- King -- Gallas --
Walker ------------------ Bale
-----------Sandro
------Parker ---- Modric
-------------VdV
------Defoe ----- Adebayor

Two attacking wing-backs, three midfielders that can tack back and tackle and three forwards with more space to work in.

I think there is enough cover to stamp out any doubling up on our full backs, while at the same time enough width to allow them to get forward and play balls down the channels. Furthermore the technical ability of that team means we're unlikely to be on the back-foot and always have Sandro to put in a tackle when the other team counter.

[Musashi]

Then according to your formation, it becomes a choice between Bale and BAE.

[spursman18]

Your formation is more or less a 4 3 3, which we wont see with Harry in charge. Also, I think VDV needs as much space as possible coming from a deep position to play off Adebayor and I can see JD getting in his way and vice versa for them to be effective.

I like the idea but I dont expect to see it played.

[NI Yiddo]

Then according to your formation, it becomes a choice between Bale and BAE.

Possibly, they could both do with competition... I think Bale is better attacking from deep and BAE is much better with Bale in front of him so I've emitted Benny for now. Lennon would also be benched for this formation as Walker/Parker/Defoe can do his job together more effectively.

[NI Yiddo]

Your formation is more or less a 4 3 3, which we wont see with Harry in charge. Also, I think VDV needs as much space as possible coming from a deep position to play off Adebayor and I can see JD getting in his way and vice versa for them to be effective.

I like the idea but I dont expect to see it played.

Yeah, I never expect Harry to implement it due to the versatility, but it annoys me when he sees it as a problem, as other managers may see it as an experimental opportunity. I think JD is more capable of hugging the touchline and tracking back, going wide and covering the right wing position than VdV. He would assume more of a Walcott/Henry flanker role [RAM/RW/RF/RS] (sorry for the ars*nal/rugby/fifa reference). If I presented it to Redknapp I'd argue it was just a diamond 4-4-2... can also be viewed as a 3-5-2 though when the full backs are ahead of Sandro and he ends up in a sort of sweeper role.

[spursman18]

I think JD is more capable of hugging the touchline and tracking back, going wide and covering the right wing position then VdV. He would assume more of a Walcott/Henry flanker role (sorry for the ars*nal and rugby explanation).

I'm not too sure about Defoe over VDV on the wing (I'd rather have neither playing there), but he's most effective for me at least playing on the last defenders shoulder. Dragging him out wide wouldnt do a great deal of good, as him playing off a striker partner (which is what his game revolves around). If he comes out wide and cuts inside he'd again be taking VDV's space away from him. There's no doubt he does well to put a shift in to track back and defend but thats not what I really want from a forward throughout the duration of a game. Sure, he needs to do it when called upon but having him in a wide position will ask him to do this too often for my liking and would take him out of the game in terms of his finishing ability and how effective he could be for a striker like Adebayor.

If he was played as a wide forward in a front 3 then I could see it working out for him, because he wouldnt have to track back as often and he would be able to cut into the middle without having a trailing player in VDV to worry about his space being taken away. But, I'd much rather have VDV in our team behind a lone strike than Defoe (in a 4 4 2) if it's going to enable us to play with 2 out and out wingers which I like to see when we play.

[NI Yiddo]

I'm not too sure about Defoe over VDV on the wing (I'd rather have neither playing there), but he's most effective for me at least playing on the last defenders shoulder. Dragging him out wide wouldnt do a great deal of good, as him playing off a striker partner (which is what his game revolves around). If he comes out wide and cuts inside he'd again be taking VDV's space away from him. There's no doubt he does well to put a shift in to track back and defend but thats not what I really want from a forward throughout the duration of a game. Sure, he needs to do it when called upon but having him in a wide position will ask him to do this too often for my liking and would take him out of the game in terms of his finishing ability and how effective he could be for a striker like Adebayor.

If he was played as a wide forward in a front 3 then I could see it working out for him, because he wouldnt have to track back as often and he would be able to cut into the middle without having a trailing player in VDV to worry about his space being taken away. But, I'd much rather have VDV in our team behind a lone strike than Defoe (in a 4 4 2) if it's going to enable us to play with 2 out and out wingers which I like to see when we play.

Well there is nothing, hypothetically, to stop Lennon challenging the place of Defoe or Bale challenging the place of Adebayor for the RF/LF position assuming VdV's place is divine. I just think if Rafa and Defoe's places were equal in the team then VdV would learn to track back quickly as like you say, Tottenham work better with wingers and could easily adapt a 4-3-3 without either of them.

eg:

------------Brad
------- King -- Gallas --
Walker ------------------ BAE
-----------Sandro
------Parker ---- Modric
--Lennon --------------Bale
---------- Adebayor

Now Lennon has nicked Defoe's place, Bale has nicked Adebayors but Ade has also nicked Rafas, if that makes any sense

Over-thought I know, but it's just rough working out to prove the equation "VdV + Defoe = No" wrong... or more proving "VdV == Defoe" right.

[Luke0405]

I wouldn't want to see Bennie lose his place.

[spursman18]

I'm discussing this topic in two different threads and my brain is fried because of it!!!!

The one thing I will say about your formation is that a lone striker benefits playing off a player like VDV because of his ability to finish and create off/for that striker. VDV's ability to finish is better than both Lennon and Bale to some extent so I just dont see how leaving VDV out of our team is going to benefit us.

[Musashi]

Your formation is more or less a 4 3 3, which we wont see with Harry in charge. Also, I think VDV needs as much space as possible coming from a deep position to play off Adebayor and I can see JD getting in his way and vice versa for them to be effective.

I like the idea but I dont expect to see it played.

It's not 4-3-3. This is 4-4-2 with a closed diamond midfield. Chelsea used it a lot in the past when they have too many CMs and no wingers.

[NI Yiddo]

I'm discussing this topic in two different threads and my brain is fried on it!!!!

The one thing I will say about your formation is that a lone striker benefits playing off a player like VDV because of his ability to finish and create for that striker. VDV's ability to finish is better than both Lennon and Bale to some extent so I just dont see how leaving VDV out of our team is going to benefit us.

Well the point is the likes of Bale, Lennon, Kranjcar, Jermain have never been given the same opportunity to play VdV's preferred role so I think it's hard to judge that. Similarly, VdV has never been given the oppertunity in a midfield of 5 to track back with so this would also be an option:

------------Brad
------- King -- Gallas --
Walker ------------------ Bale/BAE
-----------Sandro
------Parker ---- Modric
--Defoe --------------- VdV
---------- Adebayor

It's just the first formation with VdV on the left... he's needed to track back, but Defoe would also be doing his fair share of tracking on the other side so the role is split equally. They can alternate wings, be replaced for wingers etc.

[spursman18]

It's not 4-3-3. This is 4-4-2 with a closed diamond midfield. Chelsea used it a lot in the past when they have too many CMs and no wingers.

9 times out of 10 VDV's role to me in that formation in the post I quoted would most likely to be higher up the pitch and not track back very much given who is playing behind him. Looking at it again, its not a 4 3 3 but more of a 4 3 1 2.

But, thats all for me tonight I'm drained of all the talk about formation/JD/VDV who is better, who should play......I just want goals and 3 points from anyone whenever we play.

[NI Yiddo]

I wouldn't want to see Bennie lose his place.

Bennie doesn't have to lose his place assuming Bale doesn't do as good a job at left back or does a better job as a forward. Then it'll become a choice of Bale/VdV for example or BAE/Defoe... essentially every position on the team has competition depending on the opponent and form of the players.

[NI Yiddo]

But, thats all for me tonight I'm drained of all the talk about formation/JD/VDV who is better, who should play......I just want goals and 3 points from anyone whenever we play.

I'll take that as a concession then

Honestly, I would've given up the formation talk ages ago as it's nearly 4am here and I have footy trials first thing tomorrow but my house-mate is on the phone in the room next to me and I kept him up the night before so no way am I getting any decent sleep tonight!

To be continued...

[US_Spurs_Fan]

With Defo, VDV, and Adebayor all in the same lineup we'd probably concede 5 goals. So they had better score 6.