Thread: Serie A Chat

I'm going to post a reply from a bluecrewla post back in the Sandro thread, as I think out of any recent threads, this would be the most fitting one to discuss it in. His reply's were to @05grottim

You said you watch a decent amount of Italian teams in the CL, not the league. To me cup competitions that aren't necessarily the best way to make an assessment on how a team regularly performs throughout a league season because of tactical changes managers make due to the opponent, they have very little experience with. If you watch a lot of Serie A then I apologize (even though that wasn't meant to offend) but you didn't stipulate that in your initial post.



Originally Posted by 05grottim
Also the thing about if bale hadnt have played so well seems flawed to me it's such a ridiculous thing to say. If eto hadnt have played against us in the first leg would they have scored as many goals? I mean it's something that we'll never know. If a player who is part of the 11 goes out and plays well then that's why he's in the team. As the saying goes "if my sister had been a bloke she'd have been my brother". The fact is it wasnt just bale that won us that game, we defended solidly, were solid in the middle and each and every player had a good game we played the better football and just because a player has standout performances and grabs the headlines doesnt mean the rest of the team didnt out play them as well. If you watch the highlights reel then yes it would look like it was bale winning us the game and i agree he had match defining moments but you play to your strengths and he's one of them. It's like saying barca might not have won games without messi- that maybe the case however he plays for them and he adds his contribution to the team.



I think the Bale point is valid, he took Inter by surprise, in fact he took a lot of neutrals by surprise. Which isn't his fault or ours but I think if Bale had been showing that sort of devastating form earlier, Inter would have game planned specifically to him, just like so many teams did in the league. Without Bale having arguably the game of his life we don't beat Inter by two goals, I'm pretty confident in saying that. My point was it's obvious that Bale didn't continue that form for the course of a season. He played well in stretches but he never hit those heights again. To me that's very different then Eto'o or Messi, when you turn on the TV you expect it from them, teams game plan to try and contain them. Saying that though, we beat them and we played a good game. Your comments suggest though because we beat them it shows there's a huge gap in class which I personally don't agree with. It's not a shot on my own team it's just me trying not to be bias.



Originally Posted by 05grottim
Also you list these big marquee names and yes they are exciting players however the overall style of a team is a big factor in things. For example real madrid have a team that is capable im sure of playing very attractive football, quick passing, movement, running etc however there style means that as we've seen over the year that they have a more "ugly" style which isnt as pleasing to watch and rely on moments of magic from the big names rather than just good football.



This I don't understand, you say it's an ugly style of football but some of the most creative free flowing football I saw last year was played by the Milan sides in the league. At times Eto'o, Sneijder, Ibra, Pato etc. really played attractive football. There's one give-and-go goal by Eto'o in particular which personifies this. Honestly I didn't see much "attractive" football that I would put over Milan in England. That's unless you find traditional functional football attractive. The creativity of Milan was very pleasing to the eye last season. With them in particular the one size fit all stereotype of Italian football doesn't fit.



Originally Posted by 05grottim
For example the game at the san siro against AC they may have had all of these statistical advantages however the fact is they only forced gomes into 2 good saves against what was a fairly depleted tottenham side and when we started to play any sort of decent football it ended up with them fouling and playing dirty trying to enforce themselves on the game. Also especially in the first half we created as many if not more chances as they did and it was only in the second half the screw began to turn.



Still statistically they had the advantage and dominated play at times. We can use the excuse well were playing defensively, trying to contain them. At times though we simply couldn't get the ball off them or keep it. There's a fine line between being dominated with possession and playing defensively, which is typically drawn by fans. Even so, even when we had the ball we didn't look particularly threatening, especially in the second leg.



Originally Posted by 05grottim
The standard of football as a league in england compared to serie A is much higher and i dont think you could deny that really. I couldnt see an inter or a AC making the semi finals let alone the final of the CL without a favourable draw as they would most likely draw any of the 4 english clubs in it which im afraid to say mate are simply better.




It is but like I said something that's unique with English fans, because they all believe the EPL is the best league they dismiss all other leagues with an air of superiority, and overrate teams outside of the Top 6. I'm not accusing you of this but I've seen fans suggest the top 3 in Serie A would be fighting relegation which is just a stunning display of ignorance to me to me. I think people tend to forget that even though Serie A is going through a bit of a lull, they still have won more CL titles in the past decade then English sides, and should have won the against Liverpool. Dominance of leagues go in cycles, whenever Italy can fix it's issues atmosphere at the ground, selling to new markets, attracting marquee players, etc. I can see them being competitive again.



Originally Posted by 05grottim
If sandro did go to roma i just wouldnt understand the decision unless it was for financial purposes. I agree with you that he would get paid more than at spurs no doubt about it. However why not move to spain? He could get into one of the big spanish teams or even one of the bigger english clubs (if we were to sell) and earn more. He would always have a shot at the CL and also the truth is he's playing in a much better standard of league and testing himself against the best players which lets face it in the italian league he isnt.


Clearly you're passionate about your club but saying why wouldnt he want to play for roma is a bit silly. If he's getting offers from a club like roma in terms of playing standards at spurs it isnt better imo or if you feel it is it's very small. He's good enough for a team like chelsea from what we've seen so far and would be a decent fit to maybe replace essien in later years, maybe he could play the holding role for united, arsenal, liverpool whoever but i just couldnt understand a move to italian football because the truth is it just isnt that good.




What Roma are building atm will make them competitors in the future. There's a clear plan and vision to compete at the highest levels. We bash players like Modric for wanting to leave and not realizing we're a growing club. We attack foreign players for not realizing Spurs are club on the rise and wanting to be part of our growth, I don't see the difference to be quite frank. To say it's all about money baseless. Maybe it's his dream to play in Italy. The general disregard for leagues or players outside of England has always bothered me with English fans. That has nothing to do with me being a Roma fan, so I think you're out of line there, I am a Spurs fan you know. A lot of Brazilians grew up watching Serie A and admiring the league and the players in it, some of the key players being Brazilian. Is it really hard to imagine a player like Sandro, admiring Ronaldo or Ronaldinho from their time in Italy? I've been to Brazil and Argentina and you would be surprised at the pull some of the Italian clubs have on the public. To fans who have watched Serie A there whole life winning the Scudetto is still a big deal. Maradona is treated like a god in Italy for winning the Scudetto, they club he did it with contributes. The comparison would be one player leading Spurs to a premiership title. So if that's the case and Sandro really wants to play in Serie A, how does that display a lack of commitment. He wants to play at a club where he would enjoy his football the most and still would be competing for things. The only difference is you don't value what he's competing for, so it's always going to display a lack of commitment.

P.S. Spurs bias aside and I can't think of a better side I ever to take the pitch then the Milan sides of the late 80's. They are one of the few sides I would think can give this current Barca team problems. Teams like that is why I'll always have a sentimental affinity for Italian football. I'll explain further in a few days if anyone disagrees. I'll just say Van Basten, Rikaard, Gullit, Maldini, Costacurta, Baresi, Ancelotti etc. would do a job on them.

.....
.....
.....

This I don't understand, you say it's an ugly style of football but some of the most creative free flowing football I saw last year was played by the Milan sides in the league. At times Eto'o, Sneijder, Ibra, Pato etc. really played attractive football. There's one give-and-go goal by Eto'o in particular which personifies this. Honestly I didn't see much "attractive" football that I would put over Milan in England. That's unless you find traditional functional football attractive. The creativity of Milan was very pleasing to the eye last season. With them in particular the one size fit all stereotype of Italian football doesn't fit.

Would you agree that Milan are highly favored by Italian refs (more so than ManUre in Eng), in Serie A? To me it really seems that way, and due to this I've noticed opposing defenders have some sort of massive fear of performing tackles in, or around the box. For example, I watched the Lazio game today, there was a play where Ibra had possesion about 27 yards out, on the center/right area of the box, and chipped it to Cassano who was in the box on the left side. During this, there was a Lazio defender facing him (who also had 2 others to back him up), and he gave Ibra about 5 feet of space (normal usually, but not when he's that close to the box and in a complete stop), and most shockingly, he let Ibra stand there and look for options for literally 3 seconds. I have noticed this quite often, but mostly against Milan.

Also, what about games like the NLD last year? And many others from last year, such as Arsenal v Liverpool, Chelsea v Aston Villa (my favorite non-Spurs game last season), United v Liverpool. And from this season's first 3 weeks, compared to last season Milan (since they've only had 1 week is it?), do you find the style of Milan more attractive than what City and United have shown?

It is but like I said something that's unique with English fans, because they all believe the EPL is the best league they dismiss all other leagues with an air of superiority, and overrate teams outside of the Top 6. I'm not accusing you of this but I've seen fans suggest the top 3 in Serie A would be fighting relegation which is just a stunning display of ignorance to me to me. I think people tend to forget that even though Serie A is going through a bit of a lull, they still have won more CL titles in the past decade then English sides, and should have won the against Liverpool. Dominance of leagues go in cycles, whenever Italy can fix it's issues atmosphere at the ground, selling to new markets, attracting marquee players, etc. I can see them being competitive again.

I thought for a second that I might have had some part to do in what you were stating there lol, until that second part of the bold showed up . I don't remember saying something like that, I think I said 'Pool would probably have finished 1st and Juve mid-table were they to switch league's last season haha, so probably not directed at me.

I think Serie A got tougher over the summer, with Napoli looking like a real force to be reckoned with, and Lazio making such fine purchases in Cana, Cisse, and to a lesser extent Klose (what a goal by him though!). What you mentioned earlier that Milan look easy faves to win, and the #2-6 is a toss up, I totally agree with that. Some say Juve will be making a push, but imo they'll be without CL for another year. Perhaps Roma could take Inter's place? Who knows with Forlan, at 34 he might have some long injury or a massive dip in form, and then Inter are screwed. Zarate isn't quality enough to be Inter's lead striker (or even one of the starting 2) imo.

And to your last 3 paragraphs. Btw, I agree with what you said for the Spurs v Milano teams in CL last season, we didn't outclass Milan (not by a long shot), and the Bale thing as well.

I totally see why Sandro said he wants to play in Serie A. Many youngsters of his age grew up watching the Milan dutch-trio team dominate the world and hence why Milan has such a huge following and is considered to be such a massive club. But I just cannot stand the way players change the moment they put that rossoneri kit on!!! The Ibra's, the Pato's, Boateng, Robinho, etc.. they think they are gods the moment they are a Milan player. It isn't like that with Inter, or any other Italian side. Imo this is mostly because of the dutch-trio era, they gave that team such a huge name. I come from Albania, everything that was televised over there was in Italian because the country's networks would just steal signals from Rai Uno, Due, and transmit them for free on Albanian tv. So Serie A was mostly the only football we got apart from CL, and I see the influence that team would have had on youngster's like Sandro, and also because like you mentioned many Brazilians over the years, the biggest names, have played in Serie A, whereas very little have played in England. Also, I can imagine Italian being far easier to learn from a Portugese-speaker than English is.
@BlueCrew LA

Originally Posted by MagnaThor

Would you agree that Milan are highly favored by Italian refs (more so than ManUre in Eng), in Serie A? To me it really seems that way, and due to this I've noticed opposing defenders have some sort of massive fear of performing tackles in, or around the box. For example, I watched the Lazio game today, there was a play where Ibra had possesion about 27 yards out, on the center/right area of the box, and chipped it to Cassano who was in the box on the left side. During this, there was a Lazio defender facing him (who also had 2 others to back him up), and he gave Ibra about 5 feet of space (normal usually, but not when he's that close to the box and in a complete stop), and most shockingly, he let Ibra stand there and look for options for literally 3 seconds. I have noticed this quite often, but mostly against Milan.

Yeah you can say that but it's the case with every top team regardless of the league IMO. It's probably more noticeable in Serie A and Milan because of how play-acting is employed domestically. In England fans/media consider play-acting shameful behavior, even though blissfully ignoring that EVERYONE does it, it's just a matter of degrees and whether it's in a critical moment. On the other hand in Italy, Spain, South America etc. fans classify the same acts as clever play. In fact when scouting players on the boards a players ability to draw fouls is seen as a major hallmark of his game, Totti for example. I don't necessarily agree with that attitude but I'm not so vehemently apposed or up my own ass not to realize it's part of the game. So to answer your question directly, yeah that probably contributes to the space Ibra gets, Cassano too, he's even better at drawing fouls. Also you have to remember even though Ibra is pretty big he's rather good with his feet in tight spaces, he could easily find another player if you're pulled out of position, which I imagine weighs on the minds of defenders.

I will say this though, Milan probably do get favored by the refs, like I said though it's common everywhere with the perceived top team but when Juve are good they get unbelievable calls. That's one thing I don't miss about the Old Lady. Then you factor in they used to allegedly pay the refs, just to make sure they got the benefit of the whistle.

Originally Posted by MagnaThor

Also, what about games like the NLD last year? And many others from last year, such as Arsenal v Liverpool, Chelsea v Aston Villa (my favorite non-Spurs game last season), United v Liverpool. And from this season's first 3 weeks, compared to last season Milan (since they've only had 1 week is it?), do you find the style of Milan more attractive than what City and United have shown?

Those were all good matches. I was responding more to the criticism of Serie A not being attractive compared to England. Every time either Milan or Inter stepped on the field last season we saw some great attacking football. Especially Milan, their forward options Ibra, Robinho, Pato, Cassano, Prince etc. played some real attractive football last season. I don't see how anyone could look at any matches Udinese or Napoli played and say they were dull. The atmosphere wasn't as good as in Premiership matches, if you a fan of an English club you likely didn't have anything invested, but the fluidity/creativity was just as attractive.

Originally Posted by MagnaThor

I thought for a second that I might have had some part to do in what you were stating there lol, until that second part of the bold showed up . I don't remember saying something like that, I think I said 'Pool would probably have finished 1st and Juve mid-table were they to switch league's last season haha, so probably not directed at me.

Nah that was a real argument I had with an idiot on another board, who obviously never watches football outside of England.

Originally Posted by MagnaThor

I think Serie A got tougher over the summer, with Napoli looking like a real force to be reckoned with, and Lazio making such fine purchases in Cana, Cisse, and to a lesser extent Klose (what a goal by him though!). What you mentioned earlier that Milan look easy faves to win, and the #2-6 is a toss up, I totally agree with that. Some say Juve will be making a push, but imo they'll be without CL for another year. Perhaps Roma could take Inter's place? Who knows with Forlan, at 34 he might have some long injury or a massive dip in form, and then Inter are screwed. Zarate isn't quality enough to be Inter's lead striker (or even one of the starting 2) imo.

I actually think Lazio are pretty good. It worries me a bit because while Roma have improved we're young, while all of Lazio's improvements have been quality veteran players. I know it's so difficult to make this case but I really think Klose will find some new form in Italy. German players for decades have had a similar problems to Klose, but upon leaving the comforts of home have found some form. Maybe it's complaceny, maybe it's being in a different country and having to prove something IDK.

Like I said though with Roma's young pieces, a complete culture change (Barca Syle 4-3-3), the Totti situation and we have a lot to work through. I'm optimistic though and I think 2 thru 4 is wide open, if Lazio put in performances like today though they'll crush mid-bottom half teams.

Originally Posted by MagnaThor

I totally see why Sandro said he wants to play in Serie A. Many youngsters of his age grew up watching the Milan dutch-trio team dominate the world and hence why Milan has such a huge following and is considered to be such a massive club. But I just cannot stand the way players change the moment they put that rossoneri kit on!!! The Ibra's, the Pato's, Boateng, Robinho, etc.. they think they are gods the moment they are a Milan player. It isn't like that with Inter, or any other Italian side. Imo this is mostly because of the dutch-trio era, they gave that team such a huge name. I come from Albania, everything that was televised over there was in Italian because the country's networks would just steal signals from Rai Uno, Due, and transmit them for free on Albanian tv. So Serie A was mostly the only football we got apart from CL, and I see the influence that team would have had on youngster's like Sandro, and also because like you mentioned many Brazilians over the years, the biggest names, have played in Serie A, whereas very little have played in England. Also, I can imagine Italian being far easier to learn from a Portugese-speaker than English is.

Don't really have much to say here, my thoughts exactly.

P.S. Actually I had sushi with one of your countrywomen on a work related trip in Detroit, It wasn't just me and her a few people like 15+. Her name was Tika (not sure on the spelling) and she's a model. Pretty tall girl I'm 6'4" and she was only a couple inches shorter than me with heels on. I remember her because obviously she was good looking, but I'd never met someone from Albania before.

Cesena 1-3 Napoli....

Cesena looked good for most of the match, then had a player sent off and went downhill. Pandev had an amazing miss, like I'm still trying to understand how he did that. Shortly after Hamsik leathered one from outside of the box, beautiful.

Oh FFS Palermo have found another one..... Afriyie Acquah looks quality! Only 19, from Ghana

Great game between Inter and Palermo tonight.

3-2 now Palermo....

OMFG!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by BlueCrew LA

OMFG!!!!!!!

After watching the replay Cesar could and should have done better. I think he assumed it was going over the bar.

Originally Posted by Rivron

Shocking ratings for Inter. You look at that line-up and you realise how fooking old it is. Maybe, just maybe, we now have a case of age overtaking experience.

Palermo vs Inter Player Ratings - Goal.com

Not sure, though a Milito/Forlan/Zarate forward line was a sight to behold, ancient.

I think it has more to do with the tactical change, moving from a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 with inverted wingers to a 5-2-3 (The media have been calling it a 3-4-3 but it's a 5-2-3). The 5-2-3 is an odd formation regardless but with that squad I can't see how it's going to work. The forwards weren't great but they weren't terrible, Zarate had the worst game and he's the youngest. The midfield was a bit stretched Cambiasso has an off game but I don't think that was because of his age, he just had an off game. The ratings are a little weird, personally I thought Alvarez was one of the best players off the bench and they gave him a 6.

The biggest problem with running the 5-2-3 with this current inter side is space, and that's where the age becomes a factor, but it's a result of tactics IMO. If they weren't playing a 5-2-3, Palermo wouldn't have so much space to exploit the old legs of Inter. Against a young athletic side like Palermo that's just asking for trouble. In a 5-2-3 you have two CM, Stankovic and Cambiasso are extremely versatile but both like to get forward. So I can't understand why both were played together, unless one was going to hold. It seemed like they were on a pulley system but a few times it didn't work and both went forward leaving acres of space for Palermo to hit them on the counter.

The center backs played were old Zanetti, Lucio and Samuel. Personally I still think Zanetti and Lucio are still class and probably have another couple of years in them, but the suffered from the same problem as the midfield, too similar players. Typically in a 3 man back line the roles are as such...

Stopper---BPCB---Stopper

Stopper---Sweeper---Stopper

Stopper---Sweeper---Cover(Like King)

The problem with Inter is with Lucio, Zanetti and Samuel they played...

BPCB---Cover/Stopper---BPCB


Samuel is a bit of a tweener between the two classes, but he's not the player he was. Regardless, if those are the CB's you employ you're almost guaranteed to give the opponent acres of space, because no one besides Sameul is disciplined staying home and he's not that good anymore.

I'm still trying to figure out why Gasperini wants to play the 5-2-3. The only reason I can think of is he wants to fit all 3 forwards on the field while having wide presence. He knows that the forward 3 are going to be cutting inside so he employs Jonathon and Nagamoto as wingbacks, who effectively are the wingers. Both had a decent game actually but that's just another thing making this susceptible to the counter-attack.

He seems pretty locked into these tactics but to me it's fixable with a slight change. If you want 3 forwards in the game fine, but play a 4-3-3 with a DM and have Jonathon and Nagamoto play a traditional fullback position. They can still make runs up field but they can't play like they did the last match when they were basically wingers. You lose the wide dimension but I can't understand why you need that with those players up front. Also the DM is critical because if you play Stankovic and Cambiasso in the middle, with two CB's prone to making forward runs behind, at least have someone in the midfield to break up play or slow down a counter attack.

Not necessarily tactical but one other concern is the play of Cesar. Since the end of last season he's regressed, I'm not sure if it's bad form or something bigger but he hasn't been that good.

Finally one last mini-rant, GET COUTINHO SOME GAME TIME! Every time I seen him play he's been electric but he never gets opportunities. I know he's young but give the kid a shot.