Thread: RIP Socrates .

Whenever i've asked friends/family or seen polls/lists made by people like Pele, Zico, Platini and Maradona on their opinions of the best players ever, top 20, 25 or even 50. This guy has never been on the list, he was before my time as i've said before but i've looked at a lot of old players on tape and Socrates was clearly a good player but one of the best players ever? I'm not too sure tbh. I don't know why people would suggest he's one of the best players ever, he's top quality but if you asked 100 people to name their top 25 players ever i don't think he would make the cut. I'm not trying to take anything away from Socrates or ruin this thread, i'm just speculating really. Are people only saying he's one of the best players just because they heard someone mention him and he's Brazilian...? And he has a cool name??


EDIT: The list made by Pele, the one mentioned in this thread where Socrates features, is the "FIFA 100" or something along those lines. When d'you draw the line between Best players ever and good players. The FIFA 100 has players like Michael Owen and Beckham in there... i'm proud to be English but to have them names amongst the best like Pele, Maradona, Platini, Zidane, Cruyff, Best, Eusebio, Kaiser and even some older then that Di Stefano and Puskas... that's a sham really. Owen and Beckham aren't fit enough to lace their boots, nor Socrates boots.

I'll probably get ripped to shreds or hated for posting something like this and i'm not doing this for attention or to belittle Socrates at all, i'm just wondering if it's right to call him one of the best ever... circumstances or not.

Originally Posted by THFCWill

I'll probably get ripped to shreds or hated for posting something like this and i'm not doing this for attention or to belittle Socrates at all, i'm just wondering if it's right to call him one of the best ever... circumstances or not.

Guess it's just one of those things that you really can't put your finger on, maybe he had good aura around him and some people noticed it. My dad in particular he thought while he wasn't at the top with Maradonna and Pele he was just a guy you liked to watch play football.

Originally Posted by Javi

Guess it's just one of those things that you really can't put your finger, maybe he had good aura around him and some people noticed it. My dad in particular he thought while he wasn't at the top with Maradonna and Pele he was just a guy you liked to watch play football.

That's probably true mate but that's like most Brazilian players really, they all seemed sound guys in the past. Now not so much lol. Calling him one of the best midfielders EVER doesn't really make sense because he's not. Some people are saying it because he's just died and they heard him mentioned a few times as an ambassador of football? I don't know... but i doubt anyone would say it if he hadn't. That's not meant in an offensive way btw. Fair enough some could say that the Brazilian fans love him and call him the best, although Jairzinho, Pele, Zico and Garrincha, just to name a few, are all better than Socrates. They're that way inclined to think highly of their players. Brazilian fans are definitely passionate and i don't blame them, the amount of godly players to come out of Brazil is awesome.

Originally Posted by THFCWill

That's probably true mate but that's like most Brazilian players really, they all seemed sound guys in the past. Now not so much lol. Calling him one of the best midfielders EVER doesn't really make sense because he's not. Some people are saying it because he's just died and they heard him mentioned a few times as an ambassador of football? I don't know... but i doubt anyone would say it if he hadn't. That's not meant in an offensive way btw. Fair enough some could say that the Brazilian fans love him and call him the best, although Jairzinho, Pele, Zico and Garrincha, just to name a few, are all better than Socrates. They're that way inclined to think highly of their players. Brazilian fans are definitely passionate and i don't blame them, the amount of godly players to come out of Brazil is awesome.

Could be that maybe it was just the hair and the beard? lol I get what you are saying and I agree with you on some points but lets just let the man RIP, if he hadn't brought something special to football he probably wouldn't have had so much coverage.

Cheers @Javi , good point .

Originally Posted by THFCWill

That's probably true mate but that's like most Brazilian players really, they all seemed sound guys in the past. Now not so much lol. Calling him one of the best midfielders EVER doesn't really make sense because he's not. Some people are saying it because he's just died and they heard him mentioned a few times as an ambassador of football? I don't know... but i doubt anyone would say it if he hadn't. That's not meant in an offensive way btw. Fair enough some could say that the Brazilian fans love him and call him the best, although Jairzinho, Pele, Zico and Garrincha, just to name a few, are all better than Socrates. They're that way inclined to think highly of their players. Brazilian fans are definitely passionate and i don't blame them, the amount of godly players to come out of Brazil is awesome.

Socrates is definitely one of the best midfielders ever. He isn't one of the most decorated midfielders ever but he was definitely class. Many great midfielders emulated Socrates, especially in Brazil. If he would have come to Europe, or played in Europe in his prime he would have been recognized as one of the best. He played most of his career in Brazil and I think in the minds of European fans they devalue him because of this but this. South Americans have been coming over to Europe for awhile now but in Socrates's day more of the better players would stay home. It was legitimately one of the better leagues in the world and his goal scoring record for a midfielder was incredibly prolific. The best comparison to his style would actually be VDV with a bit of Modric. Besides the height difference they are pretty similar players.

It's sort of a George Best situation because even though he was a great player he never had the focus or desire to be recognized as the very best. He was an idealist and football was more a form of art then a job to him, even so on the pitch his quality was undeniable. I said it before but was captain of that '82 side which is probably the best side never to win it for good reason. He was the linchpin of that side, why they came up short had nothing to do with him. If they would have won it people might view him differently.

Originally Posted by BlueCrew LA

Socrates is definitely one of the best midfielders ever. He isn't one of the most decorated midfielders ever but he was definitely class. Many great midfielders emulated Socrates, especially in Brazil. If he would have come to Europe, or played in Europe in his prime he would have been recognized as one of the best. He played most of his career in Brazil and I think in the minds of European fans they devalue him because of this but this. South Americans have been coming over to Europe for awhile now but in Socrates's day more of the better players would stay home. It was legitimately one of the better leagues in the world and his goal scoring record for a midfielder was incredibly prolific. The best comparison to his style would actually be VDV with a bit of Modric. Besides the height difference they are pretty similar players.

It's sort of a George Best situation because even though he was a great player he never had the focus or desire to be recognized as the very best. He was an idealist and football was more a form of art then a job to him, even so on the pitch his quality was undeniable. I said it before but was captain of that '82 side which is probably the best side never to win it for good reason. He was the linchpin of that side, why they came up short had nothing to do with him. If they would have won it people might view him differently.

See this is my point mate... when do you draw the line between the obvious best players ever and a great player in a wonderful team? There's a fine line really but you still need to draw it, he was undoubtedly a great player and a legend of the game but i don't think he is anywhere near what people would say are the best ever. There's different categories which people might be mixing up... the best ever like Pele/Maradona/Cruyff and then there's great players like Beckenbauer, Socrates, Zico, Platini etc there's too many for me to mention lol. BlueCrew i've read almost all of your posts mate and you're obviously really intelligent and know your football really really well, could you name 25 midfielders/attacking midfielders better than him? I think you could, probably even more if you put some real thought into it from around the world. You could name even MORE if you were to use any position.

Was he the best player in the 82 team? Or did he have the most influence because he was captain and everyone loved him? Technically most people seem to think Zico ( obvious mention ) and Junior were better than him. I don't know really because i'm not convinced the losing Brazil team of 82 was the best to never win it. In my opinion the 70 German team or 74 Dutch team were both better. Even the Hungarians, as you mentioned a few weeks ago, losing team of 1954 could be better and that's 50 years ago.

I just think a line needs to be drawn between legends and greats.

Originally Posted by THFCWill

See this is my point mate... when do you draw the line between the obvious best players ever and a great player in a wonderful team? There's a fine line really but you still need to draw it, he was undoubtedly a great player and a legend of the game but i don't think he is anywhere near what people would say are the best ever. There's different categories which people might be mixing up... the best ever like Pele/Maradona/Cruyff and then there's great players like Beckenbauer, Socrates, Zico, Platini etc there's too many for me to mention lol. BlueCrew i've read almost all of your posts mate and you're obviously really intelligent and know your football really really well, could you name 25 midfielders/attacking midfielders better than him? I think you could, probably even more if you put some real thought into it from around the world. You could name even MORE if you were to use any position.

Nobody is claiming he's the Top 20 best players ever but in a game were thousands have played professional he's unquestionably one of the best ever, even if it's top 100 it's still impressive. You say I'm overrating him because he played on a good team, are you not devaluing him for the same reason. What great Brazilian player didn't play on a good team? I was never drawing a distinction between good players and players on good teams, players of his skill are universal. If I was starting a team in 1982 I would definitely put Socrates in the team.

Also the notion that Brazilian fans because they admired him, overrate him doesn't wash. I don't know how much you know about Brazil but that crowd is notoriously tough, ridiculously so. In Brazil winning is important but also how you win matters. Brazil focus on individual skill of players and let that form the overall opinion of the team, not the other way around, like most fans. Perfect example is the '94 winning team which in Brazil are held in lower regard then the '82 losing side and is why the majority of Brazilians didn't like Dunga as the manager. The common view in Brazil was that he was on a mission to stick one in the face of all his critics, so he built the team in the mold of '94. Functional but not really creative, which to Brazilians means a hell of a lot. So Brazilians more than anyone focus on individual skill of the players. For him to be recognized as one of the greatest players in Brazil for his era, by students of Brazilian football means a lot because of the special character of the Brazilian football fan.

Originally Posted by THFCWill

Was he the best player in the 82 team? Or did he have the most influence because he was captain and everyone loved him? Technically most people seem to think Zico ( obvious mention ) and Junior were better than him.

I've seen interviews while in Brazil were Zico himself said Socrates was the best player on the team. Zico in Brazil was sort of a ST/AM, he was considered one of the best strikers in Brazil. Well Socrates had a similar goal scoring record over a shorter period of time, and he wasn't an out and out striker. Neither was Zico but he played up top much more then Socrates. If anyone benefitted from playing for Brazil it was Zico. In fact he's the stereotypical Brazilian footballer that would always over perform for the NT but wouldn't necessarily replicate it for hisclub, think Robinho or Fabiano. Not saying he didn't have great performances on club level but not like Socrates. In fact other then the biblical plague that was Rossi, Zico arguably is the reason why Brazil never won the tournament. His inability to deal with Gentile really damned them, it effected the whole side.

Originally Posted by THFCWill

I don't know really because i'm not convinced the losing Brazil team of 82 was the best to never win it. In my opinion the 70 German team or 74 Dutch team were both better. Even the Hungarians, as you mentioned a few weeks ago, losing team of 1954 could be better and that's 50 years ago.

I should have probably said one of the best teams never to win it. Even so it's hard to distinguish for me between the 54' Hungary, '74 Holland and '82 Brazil because of the different eras. The gap between '74 and '82 isn't that large but football changed dramatically in that time, partly because of the '74 side revolutionized football. Just like the other sides after the tournaments were over. Also you have to remember I'm not just considering the tournament but also qualification and friendlies in between that Brazil side was performing very well against good international sides. Then when the tournament started they replicated that form. I've talked about this before they would have won that tournament if it wasn't for one hot player in Paolo Rossi, who never really replicated that form again.

I disagree with '70 Germany, they were good but believe it or not the 2nd best team in that tournament was England. Actually that English team was higher rated then the '66 side that won it. In the group they gave Brazil the best game and excuses are like assholes but many people me included think England could have won that game if it wasn't for the oppressive heat. Clearly the Brazilians were good but many of the English players had literally never been in that sort of climate. This isn't like today where players have been everywhere and experienced everything by 25, many British players never left the Isles really. Actually most of the Europeans years later said they struggled more with the heat than anything else during the matches. Germany in 1970 put out the English, more excuses but I think they're valid. England was without their GK who was a big player for them, one of the leaders. For some reason Ramsey substituted Charlton which was a poor move. Still England were two goals up and Germany managed to climb back into the game but a goal by Hurst was wrongly disallowed, which would have been a winning goal.

You can probably put the Austrians in the same category as best never to have won the tournament. Mussolini basically bought the 1934 World Cup for Austria. Famously at one point a ref headed a ball to an Italian player. Not to say Italy wasn't good but Austria should have won that.

To sum up Zico is a great player. I never suggested he was top 20, heck I don't think anyone on that '82 side was, but he's definitely a great and a legend of the game.

Just had a talk with my old man , his words about him" smart and very technical footballer, a guy with speed/agility who knew how to use it."