2011/2012 BALE NIKO PAV OUT --- GAMIERO, KLOSE, WALKER IN - SEE RULES BELOW:

[Dustin]

Rules:
1. Please do not comment on how much it would suck to see these players go/come.
2. Please comment on possible formations and utilization of players on the below list.
-This thread is meant to discuss our formation should we a) lose bale and b) gain two different strikers.
-It is hypothetical, but the below scenario is very realistic (perhaps conservative).
-I picked Gamiero and Klose as players because they represent 2 distinct types of forwards that can be 20 goal players but are not sure things.
(I'm sure I made a few mistakes, I'll edit this as needed)

2011/2012 season Changes and Roster:

Players sold:
Bale
Niko
Pav
Hutton
Keane
Dos Santos
Bentley
O'Hara
Woodgate (Released)

[B]Players purchased:
FW Kevin Gameiro
FW Miroslav Klose
LB Taye Taiwo

2011/2012 Team Roster:
1 GK Heurelho Gomes
2 RB Kyle Walker (Hutton Sold)
3 LW Taye Taiwo (Bale sold)
4 RB/CB Younes Kaboul
5 LW ------------------(Bentley Sold)
6 CM Tom Huddlestone
7 W Aaron Lennon
8 CM Jermaine Jenas
9 FW Kevin Gameiro (Pav Sold)
11 FW/LW Rafael van der Vaart
12 CM Wilson Palacios
13 CB William Gallas
14 CM Luka Modrić
15 FW Peter Crouch
18 FW Jermain Defoe
19 CB Sébastien Bassong
20 CB Michael Dawson
21 MF -----------------(Kranjčar Sold)
22 RB Vedran Ćorluka
23 GK Carlo Cudicini
25 LW Danny Rose
26 DF Ledley King (Player Coach)
30 CM Sandro
32 LB Benoît Assou-Ekotto
37 GK Stipe Pletikosa
39 CB --------------------Woodgate Released
40 W Steven Pienaar
On Loan:
16 DF Kyle Naughton - Loan
27 GK Ben Alnwick - Loan
29 MF Jake Livermore - Loan
31 FW Andros Townsend - Loan
36 DF Bongani Khumalo - Loan

A bit on the new players:
FW Kevin Gameiro - Height: 5'7", Age 23, Position: Similar to a Defoe but younger/in form
FW Miroslav Klose - Height: 6'2, Age 32, Position: Center Forward (can play solo)
LB Taye Taiwo - Position: LB (cover/competition for BAE)
RB Kyle Walker - (formally on loan) Postion: Right Wing Back - Comes forward, unproven defensively.


The reason this topic interests me is because without Bale, our case for playing a wide 4-4-2 is greatly questioned, if we were to play a narrower brand of football we could potentially play many different ways (including a variation of the 4-3-3 that many people keep asking about). So I thought I would hear how you all would use the above squad.


A couple possibilities:

Possible formation: Inverted 4-4-2
------------------------Gomez/Cudicini-----------------------
Walker/Corluka - Dawson/King - Gallas/Kaboul - BAE/Taiwo
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------Huddlestone/Sandro----Modric/Jenas-------------
---VDV/Lennon--------------------------Lennon/Pienaar-----
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------Klose/Crouch----Gamiro/Defoe----------------


Possible formation: 4-1-2-3 (a 4-3-3 variation with Sandro playing deep like he did against Chelsea (A))

------------------------Gomez/Cudicini-----------------------
Walker/Kaboul - Dawson/King - Gallas/Kaboul - BAE/Taiwo
-------------------------Sandro/Palacios----------------------
---------Huddlestone/Palacios----Modric/Jenas--------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
--------------VDV/Lennon---------------Lennon/Pienaar-----
---------------------------Klose/Crouch-----------------------


Cheers.

[deejbah]

I know you are referring more to a type of player than a specific player but I would say that Gameiro seems to be significantly stronger on the ball than Defoe.

In any case, how many good teams play 4-4-2 in a way similar to Spurs? It really does seem to me that most of the more successful teams play with an odd number up front with players moving onto the ball with either a quicker striker or target/complete forward acting as the lone striker. We have seen that an inability to switch up to a narrower tactic or a tactic with inverted wingers/forwards has really seen the team closed down in a few games. With the lack of movement (and the lack of form) of the strikers we have, is playing 4-4-2 really the way to go? They don't seem to create space or opportunities for each other.

[MagnaThor]

Klose is aging, and how would he be able to adapt so quickly to the EPL? Not to mention, for Bayern, he's found the back of the net 11 times in the last 62 games (last 2 years). Hasn't Defoe done better than that? Defoe, last 2 years which totaled 69 games, has found the back of the net 32 times. He's also 4 years younger, and knows the EPL much better than Klose (obviously). One bad season at the peak of one's age doesn't mean they're going to play like that for the rest of their career. It seems foolish to me that so many people here think Klose, at age 33 (that's how old he'll be when new season starts), can automatically do better than his last couple seasons, not to mention with a new club, but in a new league.

[MagnaThor]

Forgot to add: Both Defoe and Klose have played 18 league games this season. Defoe has scored 2 more goals than Klose, who has scored 1 the whole season for Bayern, and just 3 times last year out of 25 league games.

[Dustin]

Klose is aging, and how would he be able to adapt so quickly to the EPL? Not to mention, for Bayern, he's found the back of the net 11 times in the last 62 games (last 2 years). Hasn't Defoe done better than that? Defoe, last 2 years which totaled 69 games, has found the back of the net 32 times. He's also 4 years younger, and knows the EPL much better than Klose (obviously). One bad season at the peak of one's age doesn't mean they're going to play like that for the rest of their career. It seems foolish to me that so many people here think Klose, at age 33 (that's how old he'll be when new season starts), can automatically do better than his last couple seasons, not to mention with a new club, but in a new league.

So your saying that you would play Defoe over Klose?

Or are you saying that YOU DIDN"T READ THE RULES! GOD (*$@#!!!!

Just kidding, I totally agree with you, as well as Deejbah's comment about Gameiro. But it is very likely that we will not get the Drogba/Carroll type of go it alone striker we want, and instead get an older striker who can play as a target man better/differently than crouch (maybe RVN). So assuming that is the case how would you line up the above team?

Personally I wil take Klose over Crouch in most instances. Defoe and Klose however fill two separate roles.

[MagnaThor]

So your saying that you would play Defoe over Klose?

Or are you saying that YOU DIDN"T READ THE RULES! GOD (*$@#!!!!

Just kidding, I totally agree with you, as well as Deejbah's comment about Gameiro. But it is very likely that we will not get the Drogba/Carroll type of go it alone striker we want, and instead get an older striker who can play as a target man better/differently than crouch (maybe RVN). So assuming that is the case how would you line up the above team?

Personally I wil take Klose over Crouch in most instances. Defoe and Klose however fill two separate roles.

I think that we yids look at just about every striker that's gotten any sort of game time in the top leagues of Europe this season to be better than ours, when the fact is that we have the second or third choice veteran (but still at a peak age) strikers for England of the last half a dozen years in Defoe and Crouch. Some prime examples include Kevin Doyle, who was mentioned recently on here, and in my opinion (but not many others) Klose.

I don't think we need to get any of these mid 30's striker in RVN, Raul, and Klose. I think they would be next to useless in the EPL, with the exception of RVN who knows the style, but his age worries me. I think the problem is Harry's tactics. The VDV-Crouch CL lineup should be our default one, as Pav is excellent as a sub, but very poor as a starter, and Defoe just isn't in form of course.

[deejbah]

The main reason I think these veterans are being suggested though is that they would likely be free/low cost, which frees money up for a purchase of a better striker, as well as possibly tutoring/mentoring a younger striker if someone like Wickham or Lukaku was bought.

I think a many people are questioning whether Defoe or Pav are the type of striker that is going to allow the team as a whole to function to its full capability and that at least one of them needs to go. Quite apart from goals scored I can't say that the movement or touch of either of them has been that impressive. As always we only have part of the picture, as to really know what is going on, we would need to be going to at least some of the trainings and looking at how they perform there.

[Dustin]

Look guys, I really don't want this to turn into the who we should buy thread. If we don't have Bale next year what formation should we play? If you want to use Crouch and Defoe that is fine, but how are we going to cope without Bale?

There are plenty of threads to discuss which strikers we should get. But that isn't what this one is about.

[BlueCrew LA]

I love a specific hypothetical...

Any variation of the 4-3-3 works for me.

I'm going to keep beating this 3 in the midfield drum until we give it a go. Our top 3 midfielders all give us a special dimension which we lack when one is on the bench. In a 4-3-3 one attacks, one holds and the other supports. There can be a interchange between them but those are the basic roles between the CM's/DM. For instance Barca, Xavi = supports, iniesta = attacks, Busquets = holds.

Modric = Creativity, Thudd = distribution and shots outside the box, Sandro = Workrate and breaking up play. When Sandro he plays he has the ability to lock down the entire middle third. His short passes in the attacking 3rd aren't anything to write home about, which is fine because that's not his game. The freedom Sandro would give the other two midfielders would open up the attack. I think most would think Modric would benefit the most but IMO Thudd would be the main beneficiary.

Officially Thudd is classified as DM/CM, I think that has more to do with his physical presence rather than his ability to knock people off the ball. I'm not saying that he can't but to me Thudd is a true CM. He just doesn't have the motor to effectively track back thought the course of the game. No matter who you are when your fatigued you become less effective and for a guy with Thudd's body type that's bad news. I would prefer him to be more forward thinking. Not like an attacking midfielder but offense and creating offense should be his #1 priority. Thudd has the special ability because he strikes the ball so well to distribute from midfield. Sometimes putting a ball over the defense and on the foot of an attacking player. We need him in a more advanced position.

In fact would prefer Modric to track back and assist in the defensive midfield over Thudd. Modric covers a lot of ground and still has energy at the end of matches. He's best IMO when he's distributing short passes and linking up play from central midfield. He can get up field when he wants but it's clear to me he would prefer to support play, he doesn't make many attacking runs.

So yeah that's our midfield and one of the good things about our squad is the fact that were so deep at that position. Even if a few left this offseason we could run 3 in the midfield and comfortably. It's why I've grown to believe we need to hold on to both Jenas and Sarge. While neither have the quality to start they are good options off the bench in a 4-3-3.

Now for the forwards/wingers, I wouldn't like to see Bale go but for banter purposes it raises some interesting possibilities. With our current wingers if Bale left it would radically change our team. To me Bale is the only player we have that can effectively deliver balls into the box from out wide. Lennon's crosses are average at best and tend to be low. Our second best crosser is actually BAE not Lennon. So sans Bale I would like to see both wings inverted when possible. Especially if we sign someone like Gameiro, a short "defoe type" striker with a good shot. If he delivers what I hope he could our squad instantly become more diverse. I think he would shine playing a similar role to Villa, cutting in from the left onto his strong foot.

We wouldn't have much of a wide presence anymore but with BAE and hopefully Walker they're basically wingers anyways and the can cross into the box when necessary. No bale we would need to find some cover for the LB position, we would be dangerously thin at that position.

Add a veteran striker to the mix and I think that's enough to at least challenge for top 4, Berba would be my choice (for the right price). I've stated before why I think Klose may benefit from a change of scenery and I won't go into that again. At the moment though he's not at the top of my shortlist 1. Berba, 2. Drogba,3. Klose.

Like I said in another thread if we're going to seriously challenge for the title we need to make radical changes and spend money while we still can. While a great hypothetical question we aren't going to win much in this scenario.

I'm going to shoot off a few formation possibilities. Not all are 4-3-3 but I still think that should be our base formation. The second is a Barca rip off actually, VDV playing in Messi's spot and Gameiro playing in Villa's.

[BlueCrew LA]

Forgot to add: Both Defoe and Klose have played 18 league games this season. Defoe has scored 2 more goals than Klose, who has scored 1 the whole season for Bayern, and just 3 times last year out of 25 league games.

You have a particular knack for poking holes in others suggestions while not offering anything yourself.

The OP was clear about the stipulations.

[MagnaThor]

You have a particular knack for poking holes in others suggestions while not offering anything yourself.

The OP was clear about the stipulations.

That could be because some 80% of my posts come from a time when I'm half asleep, in this case it's also because I'm slightly confused.

But anywho, the point about BAE and Walker being our crossers is a good one, and it ultimately leads the wingers to cut ins and more opportunities to score. Berba would be my top choice veteran as well, for many reasons. The 4-3-3 you brought up is a great one, but Harry doesn't seem to fancy it no matter how good Sandro's performances are. When Thudd is there, Sandro gets benched for Harry, and that's a poor decision. I haven't watched much of Gameiro to judge him.

usual back 4 (but Walker instead of Charlie)
-------------Sandro------------
--------Thudd----Modric------
Lennon--------------------Hazard
------------Berbatov------------


Ah... beautiful, AND realistic.

Edit: no pun intended to anyone, just that it's realistic as opposed to the lineups featuring Falcao AND Hulk, Cavani and Hulk, etc.

[Dustin]

Officially Thudd is classified as DM/CM, I think that has more to do with his physical presence rather than his ability to knock people off the ball. I'm not saying that he can't but to me Thudd is a true CM. He just doesn't have the motor to effectively track back thought the course of the game. No matter who you are when your fatigued you become less effective and for a guy with Thudd's body type that's bad news. I would prefer him to be more forward thinking. Not like an attacking midfielder but offense and creating offense should be his #1 priority. Thudd has the special ability because he strikes the ball so well to distribute from midfield. Sometimes putting a ball over the defense and on the foot of an attacking player. We need him in a more advanced position.

In fact would prefer Modric to track back and assist in the defensive midfield over Thudd. Modric covers a lot of ground and still has energy at the end of matches. He's best IMO when he's distributing short passes and linking up play from central midfield. He can get up field when he wants but it's clear to me he would prefer to support play, he doesn't make many attacking runs.

So yeah that's our midfield and one of the good things about our squad is the fact that were so deep at that position. Even if a few left this offseason we could run 3 in the midfield and comfortably. It's why I've grown to believe we need to hold on to both Jenas and Sarge. While neither have the quality to start they are good options off the bench in a 4-3-3.

Really good point about hudd, and your right both Jenas and Sarge are suited to cover.

@BlueCrew LA Do you think we could make do without Lennon in the line up playing on the wing (either as part of a 4 man midfield or as part of a 3 man forward line)? Besides the fact that I rate him highly, I hesitated to take him out because we may need him to track back defensively - I realize playing VDV in front of a young defender (walker) leaves a bit of exposure, but hopefully a deeplying sandro can help give us numbers in the back. VDV and Gameiro though leaves both fullbacks exposed and would imply that a CM may have to come out quite often to close down the wings (assumably huddlestone?). ...I guess it brings me to the question, who is really a better winger VDV or Lennon? And how does this change in a 4-3-3?


@MagnaThor I realize the new players (and players leaving) may not be ideal, which is why I picked them, it makes a harder and more realistic scenario for life post Gareth Bale - Just saying that we have Aguero and Llorente would have made it too easy.

[deejbah]

I agree, if Bale goes, would like to see inside forwards/inverted wingers and more play on the floor, or at least less focus on attempting at all costs to cross from the byline. Hell, even if he stays, as has been discussed on the inverted winger thread, I think that these types of tactics are more useful against a wider range of opponents.

The way that Modric runs and tackles, he is almost a playmaking DM as it is.

These formations/tactics also probably allow for more swapping of players both from the bench and during the game.

[BlueCrew LA]

@BlueCrew LA Do you think we could make do without Lennon in the line up playing on the wing (either as part of a 4 man midfield or as part of a 3 man forward line)? Besides the fact that I rate him highly, I hesitated to take him out because we may need him to track back defensively - I realize playing VDV in front of a young defender (walker) leaves a bit of exposure, but hopefully a deeplying sandro can help give us numbers in the back. VDV and Gameiro though leaves both fullbacks exposed and would imply that a CM may have to come out quite often to close down the wings (assumably huddlestone?). ...I guess it brings me to the question, who is really a better winger VDV or Lennon? And how does this change in a 4-3-3?

I think both can but I would prefer Modric to cover the area behind Gameiro. I think he would naturally drift into spaces left bare by Gameiro. He plays pretty deep as it is. So essentially even if Thudd is committed up field he we would have two covering in a central role which they should be used to.

Lennon is good defensively but but so is VDV, to his detriment at times. To often he gets pulled out of position because he's legging it back on defense. I don't think that would change the question is how often would that wing be left bare if Walker is marauding down it.

It's a pickle but I think it could work with some good coaching.

Sorry if this isn't a good enough response I'm just about to check out. After another drink...

[contrast]

Isn't it funny that when I saw Berbatovs name in that post from Blue, that I didn't even make the connection that we would have to buy him!!