A small question re: WWI and the goons...

[ditch and burn]

Hello gents and ladies.

Bit random, but I was wondering if someone could help me out with a little question that I've been trying to find out about.

It's to do with the rivalry between Tottenham and Arsenal and the period after the First World War. Apparently we were seriously screwed over by the goons when it came to elections to the first division.

Can anyone shed any light on this, or reccommend a website that covers this era?

Many thanks, ditch

[Farmer Ron]

i'm on to it now ditch, Farmer ron.

[basskadet]

Yep big time

I think I wrote about it in the history section on this site, but if not I'll recap.

We had been relegated from the First Divison just as war broke out and Arsenal, at the time, were in the Second Division. The FA decided that when the league restarted they would extend it by a further 2 teams. This had happened twice before & on both occasions the 2 relegated sides just stayed up instead. However, Arsenal managed to convince the FA it should go to an election. Arsenal were £60k in debt (BIG money in them days) & Henry Norris was the man who had the most to lose being the Scum's biggest investor & he realised the only way the club would survive was by promotion to the First Division. However, They finished 5th in League 2. The top 2 (Derby & Preston) were due for promotion, but Arsenal still had Barnsley & Wolves between them & Division One. Years later it was realised that they had ot even managed 5th as a mistake had been made & they should have been in 6th even!

Norris began to canvas the idea of Arsenal winning the promotion spot, he specifically targeted Spurs & argued that Arsenal deserved to go up in our place because they had been a member of the football league longest. By that argument tho, Barnsley & Wolves deserved it more than Arsenal anyway! Nobody really took him seriously.

However, the League's president was a man called McKenna & he happened to be a personal friend of Norris (not much changes really does it, with Arsenal board still having close ties with the FA!). McKenna worked the ballot in such a way that it left Spurs with little chance, a chance that completely diminished when he gave his final speech urging people vote for Arsenal instead of us!

They cheated then & they cheat now!

BTW, during the First World War, we played our home games at Highbury. In WWII, Arsenal played their home games at White Hart Lane.

[ditch and burn]

Thanks Bass.

So had we finished in the relegation spot(s) in that season that the league was due to be enlarged?

[basskadet]

We came bottom

Chelsea took the other rel;egation spot & Man Utd finished next! How things have changed.

actually, a Chelsea game had been fixed by the betters & it meant they should (or could) have finished above Man Utd. McKenna used that as an excuse to give them exclusion from the ballot & narrowing it down to just 1 place

[ditch and burn]

I see, thanks for that... in the words of the great Lou Reed and the Velvet Underground, 'I'm beginning to see the light'. I found this, which describes an incident of match fixing affecting the teams that went down that season:

"During the First World War, Arsenal and Tottenham shared Highbury as White Hart Lane had been commandeered by the Government. At the end of hostilities, the Football League announced an extension from 20 to 22 clubs in each Division. They declared Derby County and Preston North End promoted as the top two clubs in Division 2 at the end of the 1914-15 season.
They then announced that a match between Liverpool and Manchester United had been fixed in order to help both clubs avoid relegation. Both clubs were fined, I believe, and a number of players suspended. The Football League then announced that as Chelsea had been affected by the result of that match, Chelsea were declared re-elected to Division 1 without having to face an election.
The remaining place was then thrown open for election. Tottenham’s representatives made furious protests when the Football League then announced their preferred candidate for promotion was Arsenal, ahead of Barnsley, Wolves and Birmingham City, who were all thought to have a better case. Tottenham only received 8 votes, Arsenal receiving 18 and were thus declared elected to Division 1.
Exactly how Sir Henry Norris nobbled the Football League Management Committee has never been revealed but it is suspected that some of them were bribed in some way. Certainly in later life Sir Henry Norris was caught out in some unsavoury business and disappeared from public life."

[ditch and burn]

Hypothetical question: Would the place have gone to Barnsley, Wolves oor Birmingham City had Arsenal not 'nobbled' the FA, or would there never have been an election in the first place?

[basskadet]

Henry Norris was a scoundrel but then so was John McKenna & the Football League!

I hate them for it but at the same time just imagine if they had not done it. For a start we get to cast them immediately as the villains. However, much worse, imgine of they had stayed in Division Two & gone bust! We might laugh about that concept now but only because we have had years of rivalry that would never haver existed otherwise.

Hypothetical question: Would the place have gone to Barnsley, Wolves oor Birmingham City had Arsenal not 'nobbled' the FA, or would there never have been an election in the first place?

It had happened twice before, in 1898 & 1905. On both occasions the 2 relegated sides stayed up, they had gone to election but the votes were decided on footballing merit & achievements on the pitch. Although finishing bottom of League 1, they were still above those in League 2 theoretically. It really ought to have gone to Spurs but, if not, Wolves & Barnsley both had better cases than Arsenal. In fact, so did Birmingham, altho the mistake that would have put them above Arsenal was not realised until long after

[ditch and burn]

I think in someways it is good in that
a) will we ALWAYS have the moral upperhand
b) we have some rivals that are actually a team we can actually play and beat, rather than some local non-league outfit.
It would have been nice if they were taken down a peg or two tho.

I suppose it's a bit like Portsmouth and Southampton at the moment. Pompey fans must be happy because their rivals are taking a pounding, but if they (Southampton) take a knockout blow and go out of business, there's no one to duel with, as it were and the rivalry is gone.

[basskadet]

We did win promotion again at the first attempt, & then won the FA Cup the year after!

[ditch and burn]

All's well that ends well then. Can you recommend any decent books on the history of Tottenham, Bass?

[basskadet]

The best is "Tottenham Hotspur: The Complete History" by Bob Goodwin. Its what Andy Porter (the club's official historian) recommended & its the only history that really covers EVERYTHING! Its a big book but is got every result, every player/manager, every fact & every event from our 126 year history & its a pretty good read too!

[ditch and burn]

The best is "Tottenham Hotspur: The Complete History" by Bob Goodwin. Its what Andy Porter (the club's official historian) recommended & its the only history that really covers EVERYTHING! Its a big book but is got every result, every player/manager, every fact & every event from our 126 year history & its a pretty good read too!

Excellent, I'll have to check that one out, pal. I'm currently reading the Damned United- great book, although I can see why the Clough family disliked it!

[basskadet]

Another great book, although its not much of a 'history' & more of a depiction of one specific period, is "The Glory Game" by Hunter Davies. Its brilliantly written & Hunter is a proper Spurs fan too. If you've not yet read it I thoroughly recommend it.

[ditch and burn]

I've heard good things about that- it's kind of a fly on the wall account of the club, isn't it? I'll have to order that one in.