Rangers' Ferguson and McGregor banned for life.

[mangobus24]

BBC SPORT | Football | Internationals | Scots ban Rangers pair for life

As an American, I always took the 'V-sign' to mean nothing more than "victory," as used by Churchill.

How big a deal is this negative connotation in Britain?

I was utterly shocked to see the Ferguson and McGregor banned for life because of the incident. And after looking into it's meaning, I still can't fully understand the problem. It's not like it's a racist gesture. And if it does just simply mean to F-off, then people like Rooney etc should have received life bans years ago as I can name countless times he has mouthed off to officials using this language!

Just interested on your take of the situation, and trying to learn something in the process!

[Eighteen82]

I thought it was because of their drinking session that they had, I was completly unaware of the 'v-sign' side to it untill you pointed it out.

[basskadet]

As an American, I always took the 'V-sign' to mean nothing more than "victory," as used by Churchill.

It depends which way around it is. if you hold it up in a 'peace' sign fashion, it is not offensive, but the other way around it is considered just as bad as giving someone the 'bird' in America.

There is a story that it goes back to Agincourt. The most effective weapon the English had against the French was the longbow & it basically won us the war. As a result, the french used to remove archers bowfingers when they were captured & in response, when on the battlefield, the English archers would brandish 2 fingers to the french & in a manner that said: "screw you, we still have our bowfingers".

whether that story is true or not its impossible to say & it is widely believed to be a myth. However, one thing is for sure. If you stick to fingers up at a Frenchman, he will take huge offense!

[mangobus24]

Eighteen82, I was under the same assumptions as you were about the situation. Had no clue about the V sign side of it til I checked the bbc website this afternoon.

Bass, I looked into a bit myself before and the general consensus of the origin was just as you explained, though no one could confirm it's accuracy.

Like I said, most people over here wouldn't have a clue what it meant other than the "Peace" sign. Heck, back when I played football and would score two goals, I'd often hold up two fingers, running around in celebration and often in the offensive way with the palm facing back, but of course it means absolutely nothing in America.

It's just an interesting cultural tidbit that, no matter how much time I've spent in Britain or keeping up with football, I'd never heard of. And the seriousness of it blows me away!

[basskadet]

well, I think its a little bit weird all the same. I watched the actual footage on Sky Sports & it does not look as if they are actually meaning it in that way. It looks more like they were ashamed & trying to hide their faces a bit from the cameras. Yes they could have thought about it a bit better but I'm not convinced they were actually meaning to stick two fingers up at their country!!!

If they did, then that is unbelievably juvenile but I think it is more a case of it looking worse in photographs & the press using that to demonise them & sensationalise a story

Having said that, banning them for life for a late night drinking session seems pretty harsh. I remember something similar happening at the 1998 World Cup between Glenn Hoddle & Paul Gascoigne. Gazza went on the p*ss & got dropped by Hodd. He never really appeared for England again after that but it was never an official punishment that he'd never play for his country again, it was just the way things worked out. There must be more to this than just Ferguson & McGregor drinking too much, especially as the SFA initially appeared not to be backing Burley's decision to drop them from the Iceland game

[mangobus24]

I agree that there must be some underlying story that we are not being told because it does seem to be too juvenile of a thing for either of them to intentionally do. Every aspect of the football game in today's society is being taped or photographed by someone. With the historic problems of taunting and racial epitaphs being slurred in games world wide and the attempts of FA's around to put an end to their usage, it seems almost paltry for these two guys to actually use such an offensive gesture and think that they could get away with it. And that is why there has to be more to this story than meets the eye.

Nevertheless, both Ferguson and McGregor have issued statements through the Rangers FC site, apologizing to their country, club, family and supporters for their actions. So just maybe they truly did intend for the sign to be what it was. I have to think that if the media and SFA were blowing this way out of proportion then Ferguson and McGregor would be infuriated with the allegations and denying them fully. But they aren't.

[thfcshady27]

seems to me like they were sticking two fingers up at the media wen they saw the cameras on them.....all a big over reaction unless like u guys say there is something else going on behind the scenes!

[basskadet]

I think this whole outburst is a little bit suspect. I can't help but wonder whether there's underlying discontent with George Burley. There certainly seems to be a lack of respect there, especially when the SFA themselves criticised him for initially dropping the players!

Under McLeish Scotland looked to be on the up. They were superb in their Euro qualifying campaign but have barely won a game since Burley took over. He's hardly managed at the top level before he took over scotland, Hearts or Southampton probably being the biggest clubs he ran. For his captain to behave like this I just don't think he has the support of his players at all & I don't think Scotland believe they have the right man for the job. I'm not sure they have the right man!

[Volundr]

Drinking from 4am to 11(?)am the night after a match, with another match in 2 days shows utter disrespect for your nation without the addition of insulting anyone viewing the following match. [yes, they were doing it in offense, as you also see them doing it with one finger on the video.] They're petulent and to be frank, pathetic in my eyes. If it was Steven Gerrard and John Terry [Couldn't think of anyone else.] doing this for England, I would want the same punishment given to them.

[Farmer Ron]

alcohol does so many bad things. they should be pro and not drink like a alcoholic. farmer ron

[ditch and burn]

Drinking from 4am to 11(?)am the night after a match, with another match in 2 days shows utter disrespect for your nation without the addition of insulting anyone viewing the following match. [yes, they were doing it in offense, as you also see them doing it with one finger on the video.] They're petulent and to be frank, pathetic in my eyes. If it was Steven Gerrard and John Terry [Couldn't think of anyone else.] doing this for England, I would want the same punishment given to them.

To be fair, Terry and Gerrard could snort a line of coke off the centre circle and the FA wouldn't do a thing- when was the last time an England player was seriously punished?

Look at the current England team:
G. Johnson- toilet seat theif
Terry- humiliates American tourists following 9/11, bullies referees on a weekly basis
Ferdinand- misses a drugs test, driving bans, roasting videos
A. Cole- arrested by drink and disorderly, brings the game into disrepute by turning his back on a referee like a petulant child
Lampard- see Terry 9/11 incident
Gerrard- on trial for affray
Rooney- little thug
(Crouch, Lennon and James the respectful minority).

Good on the Scottish FA for taking a stand over these overpaid prima donnas. About time too!

[thfcire]

seems rangers are trying to sell the 2 of them now .ferguson is going to zenit by the looks of it.cant see them getting much money for them now as everyone knows they want rid

[kirrieyid]

go get mcgregor i say!!!!!

[Seajay]

They both showed themselves up for being the chidish low lives they really are. The showed disrespect to the management. the Scottish team, the Tartan Army and the whole of Scotland - to me it's as bad as what Ghaly did to our shirt. I never want to see either of them wear the shirt of my beloved country again.

[thfcshady27]

To be fair, Terry and Gerrard could snort a line of coke off the centre circle and the FA wouldn't do a thing- when was the last time an England player was seriously punished?

Look at the current England team:
G. Johnson- toilet seat theif
Terry- humiliates American tourists following 9/11, bullies referees on a weekly basis
Ferdinand- misses a drugs test, driving bans, roasting videos
A. Cole- arrested by drink and disorderly, brings the game into disrepute by turning his back on a referee like a petulant child
Lampard- see Terry 9/11 incident
Gerrard- on trial for affray
Rooney- little thug
(Crouch, Lennon and James the respectful minority).

Good on the Scottish FA for taking a stand over these overpaid prima donnas. About time too!

u forgot to mention cheating on probably the most gorgeous woman on the planet with some cheap blonde tart.....that deserves a public lashing in my opinion!