Tottenham's lack of tactics thread

[basskadet]

I've read many, many threads complaining about our current 1 dimensional tactics & how we don't change things around. People seem to think that we never try to play differently & that makes us predictable to our opposition. I'm not simply talking about long-balls here but our all-round lack of tactical nous.

I don't believe it is quite as simple as that tho. Harry has for years been a very tactically astute manager. Look at the formation he adopted at Portsmouth in order to take Manchester United to the sword. Problem is, he HAS tried to alter formations/tactics here at Spurs but, for whatever reason, it has not worked at all. At first he tried to use that Portsmouth formation here at Tottenham in order to beat United but we simply could not get it to work in our favour & we reverted back to our 442.


We did the same against Chelsea & Arsenal, changing our tactics to cope with the top sides (which is exactly what you should do). We tried a diamond formation against the Chavs & a flexible 433 against the Arse - both failed spectacularly. We then tried a flexible 433/451 again at Home v Sunderland and, altho we won, we were terrible.

Thing is, all our great successes have come playing as a 442 and when Harry has changed it, & we've done so badly, he then gets criticised for messing with the winning formula.

There is something wrong with the players here at Spurs & it is to do with us having such a British core in my opinion. I'm sure Harry is aware of this but he DID have those continental players at Pompey that allowed him to play that way - Players like Diarra.

Wilson is our ball winner, & he is not English either, but he doesn't possess the discipline of a European footballer to play 451 - South/Central Americans are the least rigid footballers in the world in terms of formation. Huddlestone, who is the more creative holding midfielder who should thrive in a 451, goes completely missing & looks clueless outside of a 442.

I have a suspicion that such a player will be very, VERY high on Harry's summer wishlist. I really don't think we were able to do the business we wanted in January for a number of reasons. We brought Eidur in to help us mix up our formations but I don't think he would be our 1st permanent choice & his arrival only proves how limited we were this January.

Its clear we need 2 or 3 players in order for us to continue developing this team. Not just 'better' players, I think we have some very talented footballers here already, but players who are more astute & perhaps more experienced to enable Harry to switch to more exotic formations without worrying whether the players can actually cope with it.

[yidno1]

The point is Bass were all sick of Dawson humping the ball up to Crouch and hopeing for the best, this is what were seeing and its not good enough by a long way, i dont see a Plan B when the game is going away from us just resorting to same old same old stuff.

We have the players to play but i think Harry is tactically lacking at times, i do agree however that in the summer we need 3 top quality player brought in.

[ctw01]

Bass you could have opened a can of worms with this one and is something we can debate forever, but to keep it simple ,
I think one of the main pronlems is the actual players mentality, to me its just not right.

[kevfball63]

How have we changed from the team that had so much zip and spark at the start of the season , to the team we have now that seems one dimensional ?? . The problems have come with losing key players . When we first started this season we had Modric Keane , Defoe and Lennon as a four pronged lethal attack formation that was causing all of the TV pundits to get excited . The injuries have completely ravaged that formation and the drop in Keane's form after the first few games has seen us ask ourselves questions on where has it gone wrong . Keane has gone and we have been without Lennon for 10 games now .

Harry is going to keep the faith with Crouch and Defoe because he see's no other option that will create as many chances . Our problems have always been in finishing , and if you play attacking football like we do , it always leaves the door open for the opposition . Crouch and Defoe have no clear understanding anymore so it makes us look clueless when they punch the ball forward to Crouch all the time . Take Crouch out of the picture ( Wolves ) and we look even worse .

When Berbatov was here - Robinson used to be able to pick him out all the time , but it was Berbatov's touch that made those long balls look like quality passes = he would have the ball down and moving where he wanted it in one class touch . Crouch is nowhere near in the same field as Berbatov - so it looks ungainly . Also Berbatov used to slate Defoe for his inability to read the play = which prompted his sale to Portsmouth .

Its not rocket science = we need to focus on getting clinical finishing on the menu . That means Defoe starting to run at Crouch when he is being delivered the ball and then running either side of him for the knock downs , instead of sitting in the stands and wondering why the ball isn't coming to him .

[P UNIT 1980]

Our plan B is currently our plan A.

I think we have the personel to have many many more options but we dont seem to be able to put them into practical application on the field.

It may be a mentality thing or the fact that our players do what they do and are not capable of anything else.

I think Kev is spot on to an extent when he says about injuries hitting us hard.

Modders was on fire and Lennon was out of this world they gave JD so many oportunities that he was always going to look great who ever he lined up with.

Keano offered running and that was it so that bit we cant agree totally on.

Lennon carried the torch when Modders got nobbled by Bowyer but then the inevitable happened and Our main attacking outlet got bumped also.

I think the sooner them pair get back to their winning ways the sooner our options will increase.

Part of me wants to say drop Crouchy and play either Pav or Eidur to limit the amout of HOOOOOOOF we play but knowing we are incapable of playin through or round teams with out the aformentioned playmakers on song frightens me a little an no points and poor poor peformances will follow.

[SheringhamsSpurs]

i agree with bass unit and kev strongly in there points as when we have changed up things have hardly gone to plan and i think we are struggling with the loss of lennon keanes vanished form(not that its an issue now) and i personally still dont think modric is back near his best form
my main concern tacticaly for harry is the use of subs or the lack of subs in some cases obviously is always easier to sit at home and comment on what should be done but would like to see us if were a goal down to give it some death or glory at least try for that final push sometimes or when things arnt going to plan to make thoose tweaks and changes in good time for us to keep creating chances and keep opposition on there toes with some fresh legs and ideas

[basskadet]

The point is Bass were all sick of Dawson humping the ball up to Crouch and hopeing for the best, this is what were seeing and its not good enough by a long way, i dont see a Plan B when the game is going away from us just resorting to same old same old stuff.

We have the players to play but i think Harry is tactically lacking at times, i do agree however that in the summer we need 3 top quality player brought in.

Its not just this long-ball argument tho, which has been exhausted in other threads, but our seeming lack of ability outside of a 442.

If we want to be successful we HAVE to address this. It is something that has never been an issue for Spurs in the past - in fact we were 1 of the only English teams to really make a success of formations other than 442.

I'm not sure where the problem has come from tho. Harry knows how to play in different systems - he beat Manchester United with little old Portsmouth using a kind of 352.

I think the problem actually stems, as usual, back to Ramos. He tried to get us playing more continental style of football & kept trying to force us into a 451. However, I've heard that he never really spoke to any of the players in detail about what he expected from them & he took it for granted that they would cope. He played everyone out of position with no real tuition & it was a disaster. I think that many of the players lost confidence playing in these more exotic formations back then.

When Harry came in & moved us back into a slightly more traditional 442 (altho initially with Modric playing in the hole IIRC), & we started picking up points again it may have just cemented the fact in the players' minds that they can only work successfully this way.

It doesn't really make sense as they are all good players & should be able to play wherever. There are slight issues over discipline, players being able to stick to their duties, but it should not be that difficult.

Harry got the best out of the players by moving them back into positions they are comfortable in but he knows that he has to get them playing in more ways than 1. I'm sure he tells them exactly what he wants from them but I just wonder whether they truly believe they can do it after the Ramos debacle. They seem confused & that comes from low confidence.

I hate to keep on blaming everything on Juande, especially over a year after he departed, but the decline we suffered under his guidance (or lack of) really did effect the club in a big way & I always thought that Harry's turnaround was too miraculously quick - there had to be some sort of hangover somewhere & I think it is yet to be truly addressed as most of the players who are important for us to operate in different formations were the same players who were here under JR. Harry needs to get some of his own men in - players he knows can do the job required

[kevfball63]

Basskadet most people are brought up on the traditional 442 so when you start tinkering a player has to abandon all that he has grown up on . Its like me asking you to speak fluent spanish tomorrow ( Knowing my luck you speak fluent spanish ) . You could probably get a pidgeon step close in a day but you couldn't do it as if you had grown up knowing it . It takes time and a new-found trust to abandon your tried and tested knowledge

[P UNIT 1980]

Spot on Kev it takes weeks to get corners sorted on the training ground so to adopt a new formation will take a lot of work.

We don't have time this season any more so realistically we need to be looking at next season for things to happen and by then we will undoubtedly have new personnel at the lane who will also need to bed in and fit into a new system.

It will be another rocky season to come I reckon.

[kevfball63]

I make you right P-UNIT = if anything - having Lennon and Modric fit at the same time should encourage us to take a backward step and resort to what was working for us first off . Its not being able to keep those 2 fit at the same time that has held us back . We could do with trying to find like for like in those departments as it causes us to change for the worse when they're out of action .

[P UNIT 1980]

That wont happen though kev as they are 30/40ish million quids worth of players we are talking about.

Levy wont sanction that.

I think another option would be to get another outlet of the same quality on the Left (young form Villa) so that the pressure would be off Lennon to deliver every time and Modders could sit in his mor central natural position and build attakcs on the deck.

I dont get 90K a week to sort this crap out like Arry mate so all the answers are well beyond me!!!

[BigDub]

What people seem to be forgetting is that for a majority of the season our "simple, old, boring 442" tactics were working SPECTACULARLY! We were winning games, scoring goals, and both the fans and team had a high morale. Then one, very bad thing happened: Aaron Lennon went down injured. This injury is significant in more ways than one.

First, Go back and watch sections of the matches where Lennon started on the right and Crouch started up top. In these instances, with both men on the field, the number of long balls played to Crouch is a mere fraction of what it is now without Lennon. Why is this? Well it seems rather simple, doesn't it. Lennon brought so much width to the attacking side of before his injury. We could pass it up to him, let him jitterbug around 1 or 2 defenders, and then he would whip in a tidy final ball that could either be headed by Crouch or volleyed by Defoe. Since Lennon's injury Crouch has scored only once, thanks wholeheartedly to a great piece of skill by Modric (it was the Fulham match, remember). You might argue that Bentley has done fine in Lennon's place and thus Lennon's absence is not a reason for a dip in Crouch's performance. However, Lennon's pace is irreplaceable and despite his best efforts Bentley will never to be able to match that. The result has been an increase in long balls played to Crouch for the mere fact that one of our most potent, successful, methods of playing the ball in attack has been out injured.

The point I am trying to make here is that we really, truly don't need to stray away from our 442 to be successful in this league. Is it nice to be versatile with your formations? Yes, absolutely...especially in Europe...but guess what, we arent in Europe! We have beaten the likes of Liverfool AND Man Sh!tty by playing our simple 442, as well as numerous other teams. Ultimately this means that we can be a successful team that challenges for a top 4 slot by playing a 442. How do I know this? Because thats exactly what we were doing before Aaron's injury. I have a feeling, friends, that once he returns at full strength things will be back to normal.

Glory, Glory Tottenham Hotspur (and here's to hoping that Spurs are on their way to Wembley)!

Cheers.

[Nidzumi]

I think the contentinal style of 4-5-1 football could work.

------------------Defoe------------------
---Bentley--------------------Lennon---
------------Modric---Palacios-----------
---------------Huddlestone--------------
-Bale---Bassong----Dawson---Corluka-
-------------------Gomes-----------------

I think it could work with Bentley and Lennon overlapping and essentially becoming strikers who can cut inside from the flanks and lay it off to Defoe or someone.

[kevfball63]

What people seem to be forgetting is that for a majority of the season our "simple, old, boring 442" tactics were working SPECTACULARLY! We were winning games, scoring goals, and both the fans and team had a high morale. Then one, very bad thing happened: Aaron Lennon went down injured. This injury is significant in more ways than one.

First, Go back and watch sections of the matches where Lennon started on the right and Crouch started up top. In these instances, with both men on the field, the number of long balls played to Crouch is a mere fraction of what it is now without Lennon. Why is this? Well it seems rather simple, doesn't it. Lennon brought so much width to the attacking side of before his injury. We could pass it up to him, let him jitterbug around 1 or 2 defenders, and then he would whip in a tidy final ball that could either be headed by Crouch or volleyed by Defoe. Since Lennon's injury Crouch has scored only once, thanks wholeheartedly to a great piece of skill by Modric (it was the Fulham match, remember). You might argue that Bentley has done fine in Lennon's place and thus Lennon's absence is not a reason for a dip in Crouch's performance. However, Lennon's pace is irreplaceable and despite his best efforts Bentley will never to be able to match that. The result has been an increase in long balls played to Crouch for the mere fact that one of our most potent, successful, methods of playing the ball in attack has been out injured.

The point I am trying to make here is that we really, truly don't need to stray away from our 442 to be successful in this league. Is it nice to be versatile with your formations? Yes, absolutely...especially in Europe...but guess what, we arent in Europe! We have beaten the likes of Liverfool AND Man Sh!tty by playing our simple 442, as well as numerous other teams. Ultimately this means that we can be a successful team that challenges for a top 4 slot by playing a 442. How do I know this? Because thats exactly what we were doing before Aaron's injury. I have a feeling, friends, that once he returns at full strength things will be back to normal.

Glory, Glory Tottenham Hotspur (and here's to hoping that Spurs are on their way to Wembley)!

Cheers.

I think your forgetting the fact that before October every outfield player had scored = and now we cant find the pitch let alone the net .

Lets get Real here this is not a tac-tic problem = its a grass roots mid season crisis we keep hitting...............FFS stop trying to make it look fanciful its a problem.................!!!

[BigDub]

Kev, thats fair enough....if you mean that the problem is that we are not scoring goals recently then I 100% agree with you. However I would attribute that more to the lost touches of Defoe and Crouch than I would the tactics or the formations we are employing. For the most part we are creating good chances but just not finishing them. The lack of finishing is exactly 100% a problem....and a very big one. That I definitely understand and don't want to try and be light about that fact.